As I look at all the controversy surrounding the city, people, and property the common thread is religion. Who needs a church, who has a church, who can rent a space for a church.
Who is a preacher or a doctor. Who is a drinker and who is not. Who actively supports city activities and who impeades it. Some of the most offensive letters to the editor and editorials are from "religious" individuals. I guess so far as to say "I am religious when it suits me and forget when I need to be rude, crude, and critical." is the motto in this city.
Renting public tax paid for places to hold church services is fine for short term, but to do it long term makes the city a landlord. Is the city a landlord? This prohibits other churches from activities. The point and purpose was to buy land and build, when will that be done?
In the meantime smaller less attended churches are forced to meet in homes, halls or other cities. Everyone has the right to assemble before God, some had the foresight to see the value of purchasing property others are struggling.
The point is the general public is not here to subsidize any church. Whether it is through long-term rentals or free property. When one entity takes advantage the others are left with a bitter taste.
The policy of government buildings should be for event rental only, not longterm event inhibiting renting to other community members. It shouldn't exclude other churches either. Maybe if some churches weren't so politically involved every church would have opportunities as well as share in the fluid outside "donations" that somehow appear out of thin air.
Oh and yes ..Lola is my real name. I have tried to book the community center twice and was refused because of a church long term contract which I find offensive. I too am a Catholic but attend a Christian church in Vallejo. None of my church members would dare make such rude comments like the church members have in the paper. In our church we refer to them as hypocrites.
Separation of Church and State
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mindingcitybiz
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Church Rentals
First I must correct you, then I will give my two cents. It is not written anywhere in the US Constitution, nor in the Amendents or the Bill of Rights anything regarding the separation of church & state. That was a comment made in the writings of Thomas Jefferson. What is written is the government cannot mandate a state religion. I.E. Like King Henry did. We all have a right to be a part of any religion we so desire.
The dictionary describes religion as follows:
1. Beliefs & Worship
2.Particular System
3. Personal Beliefs or values
4. Obsession
5. Monks or Nun's Life
That being said renting out public facilities to a church or any other organization does not break the law.
The problem is by the City agreeing to a contract with the church or any other organization on a continual basis negates the term community recreational center. This act prevents the community as a whole from using the facilities.
The other problem is this. If the church is refused a long term contract then so must the food bank, Karate and jazzerise classes be prohibited from longtime contract.
Unfortunately this is a quagmire and will never go anywhere.
Now in regards to people who call themselves preachers and act anything but I have one thing to say. The Pot shouldn't call the Kettle Black!
[/b]
The dictionary describes religion as follows:
1. Beliefs & Worship
2.Particular System
3. Personal Beliefs or values
4. Obsession
5. Monks or Nun's Life
That being said renting out public facilities to a church or any other organization does not break the law.
The problem is by the City agreeing to a contract with the church or any other organization on a continual basis negates the term community recreational center. This act prevents the community as a whole from using the facilities.
The other problem is this. If the church is refused a long term contract then so must the food bank, Karate and jazzerise classes be prohibited from longtime contract.
Unfortunately this is a quagmire and will never go anywhere.
Now in regards to people who call themselves preachers and act anything but I have one thing to say. The Pot shouldn't call the Kettle Black!
[/b]
for a catholic and going to christian church is bad already and plus i agree
with the person that is right above me plus ive gone to that church and
it will take a year or two and then the construction will be dune so just hold your horses and plus harping on a catholic church while your a catholic is being hypocritical so maybe you should calm down and wait
verchuse come for the people that wait and i can see you just dont like to LOLA
with the person that is right above me plus ive gone to that church and
it will take a year or two and then the construction will be dune so just hold your horses and plus harping on a catholic church while your a catholic is being hypocritical so maybe you should calm down and wait
verchuse come for the people that wait and i can see you just dont like to LOLA
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mindingcitybiz
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separation of church & state
Sorry Napa Dude, but as you should know by now our constitution was founded on Judeo Christian Values, you know the 10 commandments. But have no fear the ACLU & Amensty International has mandated the Kuran is the Holy book now and our soldiers should pay for it.... So much for separation of church and state.
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Guest
Rental of City Building
First of all I would like to say it is a recreation center didn't the parks and rec department ask the jazzercise class to hold it classes there? etc. etc.
Lets face it that Church has been going to be built almost as long as I've been here.
Why can't they go back to meeting at the school like they did? This has already been going on for a couple of years and now you say a couple more. I think they need to move out and on.
There is a difference in holding classes for the community at the rec center even though they are recreational. I mean is that not why we built the center? Maybe the church should have a back up like the school to hold services for those times when other residents would like to use the center at that time. See there is a solution to the problem the church could continue to use but if other residents want to use and meet all city requirements for use then the church should meet elsewhere for that day. That is fair and keeps the city keeping everyone happy.
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church goer
Gym and new church
I don't know how long any of you have been here, but the comment about building a Catholic Church has been taking along time. Explanation so you can understand.
Holy Family Parish is the only parish in the Santa Rosa Diocese, which has the designation as a "quasi" parish. This means the parishoner have had to buy and purchase the priest's home (aka rectory), the proposed site for the actual church building and all other operational fees.
This means the parish had to raise $ 495K dollars to purchase the land behind the wine center/hotel. They also had to pay for the home on Donaldson Way.
The parish members are very involved in the community. They hold positions on the City Council, Planning, Parks and Recreation Commissions, as well as many being volunteers for many groups here in town.
One endeavor was to adopt a parish in Nairobi, Kenya and raise over $25K to send to that country to keep children off the streets and out of prostitution.
I'm sorry this conflicts with your desire to use the gym. God has a plan for each of us and it appears this parish is doing his work adequately and on an international scale.
The parish meets each Sunday at 9:00 am. Why don't you visit us. We accept everyone.
Holy Family Parish is the only parish in the Santa Rosa Diocese, which has the designation as a "quasi" parish. This means the parishoner have had to buy and purchase the priest's home (aka rectory), the proposed site for the actual church building and all other operational fees.
This means the parish had to raise $ 495K dollars to purchase the land behind the wine center/hotel. They also had to pay for the home on Donaldson Way.
The parish members are very involved in the community. They hold positions on the City Council, Planning, Parks and Recreation Commissions, as well as many being volunteers for many groups here in town.
One endeavor was to adopt a parish in Nairobi, Kenya and raise over $25K to send to that country to keep children off the streets and out of prostitution.
I'm sorry this conflicts with your desire to use the gym. God has a plan for each of us and it appears this parish is doing his work adequately and on an international scale.
The parish meets each Sunday at 9:00 am. Why don't you visit us. We accept everyone.
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Paul Maguire
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Perhaps the Holy Family Church should then list and sell their property to raise the capital to build a church? When I spoke to Father Pat about it, he advised me that if I had an interest, to "get in line". So certainly there is a demand for the dirt there.
Father Pat has told me he the church does not plan to build on the current site, so then sell it and use that capital to secure a site that will work.
I believe I may have also spoke to him about the possibility of using the now closed middle school off 680 in Cordelia for a school and a church, but it is out of the scope of the Diocese.
It is not going to get any cheaper than it is now, and certainly not any easier.
The ideal scenerio would be a grammar school and church, but the community may be too small to support that.
I expect the church will continue to grow, and the need will be greater.
Father Pat has told me he the church does not plan to build on the current site, so then sell it and use that capital to secure a site that will work.
I believe I may have also spoke to him about the possibility of using the now closed middle school off 680 in Cordelia for a school and a church, but it is out of the scope of the Diocese.
It is not going to get any cheaper than it is now, and certainly not any easier.
The ideal scenerio would be a grammar school and church, but the community may be too small to support that.
I expect the church will continue to grow, and the need will be greater.
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MeadowsGuy
- Historian
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- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:17 am
All Church's should be part of a "Town Center Plan". We really only have a few that are borderline non-taxable entites but Holy Family Parish is not one of those (borderline I mean). The Santa Rosa Diocese was part of a financial scandal some years back but this parish has recovered nicely. I'm a big fan of Father Pat.
So let's put the Church next to Wal-mart.... only kidding.
Folks... its all about land use. If you get it right, the proper uses go to the proper land parcels. If you get it wrong.... well... you get kind of get what we have now. The General Plan needed much more work in 1996 when the first Council was thrown out. American Canyon's Constitution is incomplete in many of its chapters.
I agree that that particular City Manager was HORRIBLE. YES WORSE than what we have now. But that doesn't justify what we have been going thru since.
I suggest the Town Center Meetings (if they ever happen) take up this matter in a NON DENOMINATIONAL sense. There are plenty of examples of how this is done and Santa Rosa's GP is a good place to start.
Churches have been part of the political landscape in the United States since its Constitution was made and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
BTW... it was a lot of churchgoers that put Bush in office. Right or wrong those are the facts.
So let's put the Church next to Wal-mart.... only kidding.
Folks... its all about land use. If you get it right, the proper uses go to the proper land parcels. If you get it wrong.... well... you get kind of get what we have now. The General Plan needed much more work in 1996 when the first Council was thrown out. American Canyon's Constitution is incomplete in many of its chapters.
I agree that that particular City Manager was HORRIBLE. YES WORSE than what we have now. But that doesn't justify what we have been going thru since.
I suggest the Town Center Meetings (if they ever happen) take up this matter in a NON DENOMINATIONAL sense. There are plenty of examples of how this is done and Santa Rosa's GP is a good place to start.
Churches have been part of the political landscape in the United States since its Constitution was made and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
BTW... it was a lot of churchgoers that put Bush in office. Right or wrong those are the facts.
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mindingcitybiz
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church
It would be nice to have a non-denominational chapel and reception hall. So we could hold weddings locally.
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non denominal
Holy Family is entertaining the thought of offering it's facility (once built) to other congregations who currently meet throughout the city.
They are also contemplating offering food bank, shelter facility for the abused.
Still a bit off, but being considered.
They are also contemplating offering food bank, shelter facility for the abused.
Still a bit off, but being considered.
REPONSE TO M.C.B.
MCB posted:
"...our constitution was founded on Judeo Christian Values, you know the 10 commandments. But have no fear the ACLU & Amensty International has mandated the Kuran is the Holy book now and our soldiers should pay for it.... So much for separation of church and state..."
Amen to that brother, Amen.
(Most people may NOT know about how our country was founded, especially IF they were indoctrinated/taught in a Kalifornia Skool by ex Berkeley hippies.)
Its the ACLU and groups like them which are undermining the foundation of this country; the wack job fringe which flourish in a godless society devoid of values nor responsibility, but which "FEEEEEELS GOOD" about themselves.
"...our constitution was founded on Judeo Christian Values, you know the 10 commandments. But have no fear the ACLU & Amensty International has mandated the Kuran is the Holy book now and our soldiers should pay for it.... So much for separation of church and state..."
Amen to that brother, Amen.
(Most people may NOT know about how our country was founded, especially IF they were indoctrinated/taught in a Kalifornia Skool by ex Berkeley hippies.)
Its the ACLU and groups like them which are undermining the foundation of this country; the wack job fringe which flourish in a godless society devoid of values nor responsibility, but which "FEEEEEELS GOOD" about themselves.
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guest
church and state
..and on the seventh day he rested. heheheehe
How many city activities are offered on a Sunday?
How many residents would participate?
If the city is meeting the needs of +500 citizens by offering ONE facility for a fee- then what's the problem? It ISN'T "wrong".
One or two guests thinks it is wrong.
So do you displace the organizations using the gym, the Boys and Girls Club, Donaldson Way and The Rec Center on Elliott each Sunday?
What about the +/- 1,000 tax paying citizens who are receiving benefit by using the facilities?
Two sides to every story and the complaining guest needs to look at the big picture. Better yet....get a little faith. There at least 4 city locations you can go to attend.
How many city activities are offered on a Sunday?
How many residents would participate?
If the city is meeting the needs of +500 citizens by offering ONE facility for a fee- then what's the problem? It ISN'T "wrong".
One or two guests thinks it is wrong.
So do you displace the organizations using the gym, the Boys and Girls Club, Donaldson Way and The Rec Center on Elliott each Sunday?
What about the +/- 1,000 tax paying citizens who are receiving benefit by using the facilities?
Two sides to every story and the complaining guest needs to look at the big picture. Better yet....get a little faith. There at least 4 city locations you can go to attend.